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| Conversion of Pete's 357 SIG Caliber Page to "fit" in the HandGunInfo.com site is not yet complete, but rather than wait for it to be "pretty" it is at least presentable and available. Thank you for your patience. |
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Why
The 357 SIG Cartridge Is Catching On I do not claim to be an
expert, although I do rely on some expert sources. My 357 SIG site was created
to share my test results and provide information from applicable sources that
I’m aware of. A main purpose of my site is to show that the new 357 SIG
cartridge does indeed have merit as a new modern cartridge. If you visit a 1911
site, they will rave about 1911's. If you visit a Glock
site they rave about Glocks; ditto with SIG web sites,
etc. I believe most folks understand what specialty sites are for. Should you
have constructive comments, corrections, and/or 357 SIG information to share,
please contact me. That being said, "Enjoy". Latest Update: I’d like to discuss some excellent
information from the www.ammolab.com
forum group. This ammolab site specializes in testing
ammo and is one of the top 9 firearms sites on the planet: He has tested several
thousand rounds of the usual 9, 40, 45, etc. When he tested the 357 Sig Winchester Ranger and
Remington Golden Saber ammo, it did something only the 10mm Silvertip has been
able to do. Both of these rounds cracked the top plate that holds the gelatin
blocks in place during testing. It’s obvious that these 357 Sig
rounds dump more energy into 12 – 14 inches of gelatin than most other rounds
he has tested. When he
reinforced the top plates, the same two 357 Sig
rounds mentioned above then cracked the lower plate. The best 9mm loads, such
as the Ranger 127gr +P+ barely created a ripple in the gelatin in comparison. [A 357 Sig
carbine with a 16” barrel does not push a bullet near the dubious and partially
out of date magical 2200 fps for energy
to supposedly make a difference.
Although at 1600 to 1700 fps, the 357 Sig round is
absolutely devastating and I will not describe the effects here. At 1325 –
1450, the 357 Sig is downright impressive with duty
pistols. It’s important to not only look
at what the bullet did to the gelatin media (penetration, bullet expansion),
but what the bullet does during actual
impact as well. Both sides of
the coin are important and one side will not disappear even though it’s
ignored. This is not a vague plea since the bullet impact affect on gelatin can
be seen, photographed, and measured.] As we know, the
United States Secret Service, the Department of Public Safety, and the Delaware
State Police, to name a few, use the 357 SIG caliber, and the gentleman I’m
paraphrasing has contact with a member of the shooting investigation teams of
these three agencies. His contact, an
officer, stated that the Texas DPS troopers love the .357 Sig
because it has produced the highest fatality rate of violent criminals, much
better than anything else they have ever been issued ( including the .45). The
357 Sig has operated at 100% for every single
shooting so far. According to the
annual shooting review board files, the 357 Sig is
working at 99% for the Delaware State Police, which uses .357 Sig Speer GD ammo. He also had an opportunity to
review the USSS shooting files. They use the Ranger 125 grain load and report
it’s the most effective pistol cartridge the USSS has ever been issued. The
USSS has had four failures, all with Speer practice ammo. They are now using From testing several thousand
rounds of handgun ammunition, he believes that the statement, “Energy Transfer
with handguns is a myth”, is only partially accurate. A few handgun rounds such as the 357 SIG caliber, actually transfer
noticeable energy to the test medium, which can be seen, photographed, and
measured by the distance gelatin blocks are moved, using an equal size and
weight of gelatin block for each test. [These
facts are observable and verifiable. The long skinny 9mm bullet using the “357 Sig engine” does indeed cause damage that the results of
recovered bullets from gelatin cannot completely explain. Some of the more
savvy agencies using the 357 Sig cartridge understand
this.] He stated that the .357 Sig is very close to becoming one of the finest auto pistol
cartridges ever made. It works
consistently over and over again. Police agencies from coast to coast are
switching to it in droves because it truly offers everything that the 9mm +P+
had going for it, plus the penetration of the 147gr 9mm along with the
capabilities that the disappointing .40 S&W "wonder cartridge"
was supposed to have. In a medium frame/medium sized service pistol it offers
everything that the .45acp can in terms of penetration and "stopping
power" but it does it in a smaller package. [Let’s look at a .40 and 357 Sig loading of somewhat equivalent ft-lbs of energy "Federal .357 Sig JHP 125 grains - 1,352 fps velocity, 507 ft-lbs.
energy, 169 power factor (momentum) Summary
The 10mm is an excellent
all-around auto pistol caliber, from plinking to self defense to hunting. Yet,
the smaller and easier to shoot 357 Sig still offers
penetration advantages for skilled law enforcement officers similar to the best
10mm ammo. And the 357sig has an excellent balance of size and ease of use for
non experts as well.
[Agencies
that have been using this round for years like it, even after firing millions
of rounds. The newer agencies give
it high marks. I’ve received emails from law enforcement officers attesting to
the satisfaction of using the 357 SIG, along with some of the best shooting
they’ve ever done with an auto pistol caliber. I’ve seen the effects of what the 357 SIG does at a
practical pistol range. When it’s loaded with low recoil ammo in the 1120 fps
range, an amateur can shoot just as fast and accurately as anyone else; yet,
the loud boom (low supersonic range) has an interesting psychological effect on
the crowd that screams, “Be afraid even if I miss”. Lower velocities below 1000
fps with a 147 grain bullet can of course cut down on blast if so desired. The
357 Sig has been known to gouge metal pepper poppers.
The special
bottlenecked funnel effect of pushing
the 9mm bullet down range can develop a major quick transfer into the first 3 –
6” of media to create a major “pressure spike punch” into the target. The
street stats of agencies and my own observation at the range show that the 357
SIG doesn’t care what detractors say. It just works really well. In fact, all the duty calibers do well with
one or more excellent loads that are available.] The ammolab
has stated in their forum that the best
loads in 9mm, 40 S&W, .357 Sig, .38 Super,
9x23mm, .357 Magnum and .45acp loadings, all perform well. Here’s a list of
some preferred loads:
(Each of the above loads
creates virtually identical temporary and permanent wound cavities.) I’ll end with just one more
paraphrase from the ammolab to confound you: The 357 SIG is fun to shoot
and actually offers advantages over both the .40 and 9mm that neither can match
independently. End of ammolab.com Section The August 2001 Gun Tests Magazine (Vol X111, #8) has an interesting article on 357 SIG
pistols: (http://www.gun-tests.com/pub/13_8/features/4949-1.html). Basically,
the authors stated that they are gaining more and more respect for the 357 SIG
as are several Law Enforcement Agencies. And they gave a thumbs up ("Buy It"
Ratings) for the Glock 31, Glock
32, SIG P229, and SIG P239. If your pistol is not listed, don't worry. They
only tested a few Glocks and SIG's. Discounting wildcat cartridges, the 357 SIG
is the first bottlenecked handgun cartridge to hit the mainstream in almost a
century. SIG-Saur and Federal worked together to
design the 357 SIG cartridge and bring it to market in the summer of 1994. This
cartridge has continued to gain converts from all ranks: Citizens, Municipal
Police, A 357
SIG 4" barrel can drive a 124 grain bullet at a very mild, subsonic,
standard 9mm velocity average of 995 fps (power factor: 124). Or, you can
charge it up to a supersonic velocity average of 1400 fps (power factor: 174),
and yet the recoil is still quite manageable. With a 5" barrel, you can
expect an increase of another 50 - 100 fps (power factor: 186 or so)! 147 grain bullets can easily be driven
between 920 fps and 1244 fps out of a 4” barrel – that’s subsonic, transonic,
or supersonic capabilities. I’m the Ghost of 357 SIG Future, since I describe
how flexible the 357 SIG really is (reload testing), even though currently,
ammo companies tend to mostly produce full power 125 grain rounds. Let's take a quick quiz. What does SIG stand
for? 1. Sure Isn't Glock 2. Schweizerische Industrie-Gesellschaft 3. "SIG"nificantly
better 4. All of the above 5. None of the above 6. I don't care Well, if you guessed that the longest line is
usually the correct answer, then you passed. The answer is 2. Since SIG is an acronym, some people prefer
to officially capitalize each letter and some don't, when referring to the 357
SIG cartridge. Many SIG pistol owners simply refer to their pistols as SIG's
for short, which can get confusing since there are other pistol manufacturing
companies that also make pistols chambered for the 357 SIG cartridge. Glock dropped the SIG part and simply refers to their guns
as Glock .357's. Others like to de-emphasize the
all-caps SIG, in favor of the more generic 357 Sig. Acronyms go through a
natural evolution and the all-caps is often replaced with just capitalizing the
first character or whatever. You might have noticed that I do not use a
decimal point in front of 357 SIG. That's because the 357 number refers to
having the "external" ballistics of a .357 Magnum, even though the
357 SIG uses a .355 (9mm) bullet. Therefore, I believe not using the decimal
point is more accurate. At any rate, don't let this little tirade bother you.
Actually, the ideal bullet diameter for the 357 SIG is .3555 to .356 (see item
6 below). Let's see why the 357 SIG is catching on: 1. Although the 357 SIG continues to catch
on, it did not hit the mainstream as dramatically as did its cousin, the .40
S&W. Actually, the 357 SIG Total Count would go up dramatically if one
could not only count actual 357 SIG caliber pistols sold, but also include all
the after market 357 SIG barrels that people have bought for their .40's. This
is one reason why just about every ammo manufacturer makes 357 SIG ammo now,
even though the actual 357 SIG caliber pistols sold may not completely justify
all the ammo. There are a lot of folks who buy .40 pistols and then buy 357 SIG
barrels. And there are folks like me who buy 357 SIG pistols and then buy .40
barrels. In other words, the Pistol Count statistics are skewed and not
necessarily representative of the actual facts. And that's simply because the
.40 and 357 SIG are so closely linked because of a simple barrel change (see
more details in this regard, below). 2. The nominal velocity of a 125 grain bullet
from a 3.86" barrel is 1350 fps (169 power factor rating). The full power
factory loads from a 3.86" barrel can push the 357 SIG bullet up to 1418
fps (177 power factor rating). A 5" barrel can push a bullet to over 1500
fps (188 power factor rating). Or, a downloaded 357 SIG cartridge can emulate a
standard pressure 9mm Luger at 1050 fps (130 power
factor rating). The 357 SIG has a wide velocity range to satisfy the various
sporting and defense disciplines. And, the compact 357 SIG cartridge can easily
fit into small, medium, and full sized tactical/defense pistols. On the other hand, the 9x23mm 3. Demonstrating the superior 357 Sig ability over the 9mm with short barrels: In the 1999 Autopistols Magazine, Chuck Karwin
states, "The .357 loads were incredibly efficient in the short sub-compact
Glock pistol [3.5" barrel]. From the perspective
of an engineer, I suspect the main reasons for this are the bootleneck
configuration of the .357 case and the powders giving good load densities,
which allow more complete ignition and more efficient burning of the
propellant." The 357 SIG is equally happy in short, medium, and long
barrels. 4. For those interested in a semiauto that has external ballistics comparable to a 357
Magnum revolver, but is more compact, kicks & flashes less, reloads faster,
packs more rounds, and has faster follow up shot capability, the 357 SIG fits
the bill. Although the SAAMI specs from a 357 Magnum
test barrel is 1450 fps, a typical 4" 357 Magnum often generates about
1350 fps or so, which happens to be the same velocity as the 357 SIG caliber
from a 3.86" barrel. A 5" barreled 357 SIG can push bullets over 1500
fps. An autopistol barrel length measurement also
includes the chamber, while a revolver barrel length does not include the
chamber --- See Attachment 6. Some people mistakenly believe that the .357
Magnum has a wider bullet range than the 357 SIG. Well, Dr. .40 and Mr. 357 can
handle a range between 60 grains to 180 grains, which pretty much covers what
the .357 Magnum can handle. Whether people like it or not, the .40 S&W and
the 357 SIG are inexorably linked together in the same pistol. The only thing I
will give the .357 Magnum, is that the barrel does not have to be swapped out,
which is not a big deal anyway. 5. A
lot of "super velocity" cartridges like the .45 Super, .40 Super ,
.400 CorBon and the .45 SMC are
"proprietary" (from the Latin: property, ownership) cartridges,
meaning that certain folks own the rights to each of these cartridges. Not so
with the 357 SIG, which SIG-Sauer and Federal made non-proprietary so that any
manufacturer can make it without buying rights or paying special fees. Not only
that, but the 357 SIG cartridge is also registered with SAAMI, the Sporting
Arms And Manufacturer's Institute; www.saami.org.
This is another reason why the 357 SIG is gaining popularity. 6. Typically, folks have been using 357 SIG
bullets with a diameter of .355 - .3555 (.356 for hard lead) as opposed to the
357 Magnum with its .357 bullets. If other cartridges can be marketed in such a
way that a .36 caliber bullet is loaded into a 38 Special cartridge, etc, then
a 9mm (.3555) bullet has just as much right to be used in a 357 SIG cartridge
:) For quite awhile, I have
believed the bullet diameter range for the .357 SIG to be .355 to .356. You can
get a 9mm .355 bullet to work in a 357 SIG case if it is shaped correctly and
the correct bullet crimp is used for the type of bullet being used. After doing
my own limited testing, I now believe the 357 SIG ideally should use a bullet
diameter between .3555 to .356, and not the standard size .355 bullet, if
possible. The correct bullet size and shape is a critical step to minimizing
bullet setback. A main reason West Coast Bullets and Rainier Bullets work
excellently in the 357 SIG caliber is because they happen to measure .3555. 7. Perceived recoil of the 357 SIG varies a
great deal, depending on whom you talk to. To me, a standard velocity 125 grain
357 SIG round feels similar to shooting hot rounds in .40 S&W, .45, and +P+
9mm, and the blast of all these "hot" rounds is somewhat similar to
the 357 SIG as well. The power factor ratings between the hottest loads in 357
SIG and .40 S&W are virtually identical. In general, the greater the Power
Factor rating, the greater the recoil. Ed Sanow
states, "Given pistols of the same weight, action and ergonomics, the felt
recoil of the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP is LESS than the .40 S&W 155,
COMPARABLE to the .40 S&W 180-grain loads and MORE than the 9mm 115- and
124- grain +P+ and 147-grain loads". Note: The recoil from a light powered
357 SIG round can equal an easy-to-handle standard 9mm Luger
round. 8. Given the pressure levels and slide
velocities of the .40 S&W and the 357 SIG, you can use the same recoil
spring. Some people still like to increase the recoil spring tension an extra 2
- 4 lbs when shooting the 357 SIG. The 357 SIG slide action may even improve
the functional reliability of your .40 S&W pistol, although some people
subjectively interpret the faster slide (and even a louder noise) as having
greater recoil. 9. You get more feeding reliability
*insurance* using a bottlenecked cartridge. As long as the magazine is feeding
the 357 SIG cartridge correctly, then ramming a 9mm bullet into a larger 10mm
chamber opening is a definite advantage that straight walled cases do not have.
Glock engineers actually took advantage of this
bottlenecked cartridge when they engineered their .357 Glocks
(M31, M32, & M33). As a result, Glock .357
barrels have a fairly tight chamber and a well supported chamber in the In fact, the Glock
9mm and Glock 357 (both of which use 9mm bullets) are
a natural fit for the Glock pistol, because it was
originally developed to use 9mm bullets in the first place. 10. You get another advantage with the
bottlenecked 357 SIG cartridge. The velocity spreads can often be less than 20
fps, although it depends on the type of powder used. Accurate Arms Company had this to say about
the 357 SIG caliber: "This is without a doubt the most ballistically
consistent handgun cartridge we have ever worked with. The standard deviation
for every single load developed was less than 10 fps. The average SD was 5 fps.
This is impressive for any cartridge but especially so for a handgun. The small
bottleneck and high working pressure of the round must both contribute to this amazing
consistency..." The USSS (United States Secret Service) test
protocol demonstrated that the 357 SIG was extremely consistent penetrating
various media. And Winchester Ranger ammo tests showed virtually flawless
consistency regarding penetration and bullet expansion. 11. With the right components, such as using AA#9 powder, the 357 SIG caliber can be virtually impervious
to bullet setback catastrophe, making it just as safe or even safer than other
duty calibers. If your gun can handle it, then ease the slide forward, so that
the round is very gently pushed into the chamber. Then give the rear of the
slide a rap, to be sure everything is locked up. This method is used by some Glockers I know and it definitely cuts way down on bullet
setback issues. For more information see Factory Ammo Bullet
Setback Chart and 357
Safety & Reloading FAQ and AA#9 Bullet Setback Tests 12. How does the 357 Sig
compare with the .40 S&W regarding various bullet weights? The 357 Sig
conversion kit is simply a drop-in barrel replacement into a .40 S&W
pistol, although, the pistol must be built strong enough to handle the effects
of a 40,000 psi as opposed to the .40 S&W's 35,000 psi pressure
limits. The 357 Sig and .40 S&W can easily
co-exist and be used interchangeably based on application needs. This is one reason why I consider the .40
S&W and the 357 Sig to be the same gun. There is
no "versus" here. It simply depends on your needs. The following table combines the bullet
weights of the 357 Sig & the .40 S&W. Table Facts: a. Alliant Power
Pistol powder was used for both calibers. b. 4" barrel length was used for both calibers. c. The table facts are based on Alliant testing. The Power Pistol velocities for the 357 Sig by Alliant are virtually
identical to tests performed by myself and others. d. Caution: Each powder charge shown in the
table is a maximum value.
I found this table very interesting. a. Notice the natural velocity decrease as you
look at the lightest bullets and move down to the heaviest bullets. b. Look at the velocity differences between
the two calibers for the (124 & 135 grain) bullets and the (147 & 150
grain) bullets. If you extrapolate the velocity values of these two groups into
the exact same bullet weights, then both calibers have quite similar
velocities. c. Obviously, the 357 Sig
caters to the lighter bullets and the .40 S&W caters to the heavier
bullets. d. Notice the Energy values of both calibers.
Once again you see a natural decrease in energy as you go from the lightest
bullet to the heaviest bullet. e. Look at the Power Factor values of both
calibers. Usually, as the Power Factor increases, the felt recoil also
increases. Notice that the Power Factor between the 357 Sig
and the .40 S&W are similar. The USPSA Rule Book, 14th Edition (United
States Practical Shooting Association branch of the international organization,
IPSC) lowered the Major Power Factor from 175 to 165. This makes the pistols
easier to control and lowers the cartridge pressures, in general. I do have a pet peeve with IPSC rules: Even
though the 357 Sig is an excellent duty round just
like the .40, the 357 Sig is forced to shoot Minor
Power. Reason: there is the obsolete arbitrary rule that Major Power must have
at least a 10mm size bullet. The new Production Class takes care of this
problem a little bit. But because of that stupid rule, 357 Sig
will not be popular in IPSC. IDPA is a lot more practical in this regard! Question: How does the blast of a full power 124 grain 357 Sig
round compare to a full power 135 grain .40 S&W round? To me, both of these
supersonic pistol rounds are similar, although currently, the 357 Sig has superior penetration and accuracy capabilities in
general. Question: Can you get the .40 S&W to emulate 357 Sig
accuracy and ballistic efficiency using the 124/125 grain bullets? Probably not. If anyone does, please let me know. The
lightest duty round for the .40 S&W is 135 grains. Question: Can you get the 135 grain .40 S&W bullet to emulate the full
power accuracy of the 357 Sig? Probably not, but
sometimes it can get close. If anyone does, please let me know. The mellow 135
grain PDA .40 S&W round appears to penetrate very well, although I have not
tested its accuracy against the 357 Sig. Feasibly, a bonded 135 grain .40
S&W bullet could be designed to match the penetration qualities of the 357 Sig, although, matching 357 Sig
accuracy is a question mark. Question: Can you get the 357 Sig to emulate the .40
S&W using 155, 165, and 180 grain bullets? No. Question: Can you get the 357 Sig to emulate the .40
S&W using 135 & 150 grain bullets? Probably yes. Question: Can you get the 357 Sig to emulate a 9mm Luger round using 115 grain & 124/125 grain bullets?
Yes. Question: Can you get the .40 S&W to emulate a 9mm Luger
round using 115 grain & 124/125 grain bullets? Probably
not. But, the Federal 135 PDA and 165 HS .40 S&W cartridges do a
relatively good job of it. Question: Do the Glock 9's and 357's have well
supported chambers with better support than the other Glock
calibers? Yes. Question: Can you get the .40 S&W to emulate light 10mm loads? Yes. I do know the .40 S&W and the 357 Sig calibers complement each other very nicely. As long as
a .40 S&W pistol is built strong enough to handle a 40,000 psi cartridge (an extra 5000 psi
over the .40 S&W standard) and the magazines can reliably feed 357 Sig ammo, then it is flexible enough to use either the .40
S&W or the 357 Sig, depending on the exact
performance characteristics you desire. Do you want big? Do you want small? Do
you want fast? Do you want slow? Do you want high
energy? Do you want more momentum? Do you want excellent practical accuracy? Do
you want excellent bullseye accuracy? Do you want a
practical bullet range of 60 to 180 grains? Do you want the flexibility of
light to full power loads with each caliber? Folks, this is flexibility. 13. The lighter 357 SIG rounds, as opposed to
the heavier .40 S&W rounds, produce more velocity, energy, and whatever else
they mysteriously do, making them effective on the streets. The developing 357
SIG database is showing high marks. One famous shooting, as described by Ayoob, stated that a 357 SIG punched through a heavy duty
truck cab to kill a gunman, while the .45 from his partner could not do the
job. A state trooper, based on his experience, said that the 357 SIG can
instantly stop opponents with no fatal wounds. And a city police officer was
delighted that the 357 SIG could stop a vicious pit bull with one shot, while
previously a pit bull soaked up multiple subsonic 147 grain 9mm rounds before
being stopped. 14. The 357 SIG has less torque than the .40
because of using a smaller 9mm bullet. This means less twisting in the hands
and a more straight up and down muzzle action, which
can help provide better gun handling control. The faster slide action of the
357 SIG can also provide faster follow-up shooting. 15. Another advantage if you carry all day,
is that five loaded 357 SIG magazines weigh less than five loaded magazines in
.40 S&W and especially .45 ACP. 16. Just about all ammo companies are
supporting the 357 SIG. Low priced Blazer ammo runs between $8 - $12 per box,
depending on where, when, and how much you buy. Another reason more ammo
companies are supporting the 357 SIG is that this cartridge is not proprietary
and was registered with SAAMI, thanks to Federal and SIG, so companies do not
have to pay special fees. --- See Attachment 3. You can even buy 357 SIG snap caps now
(A-Zoom Ammo Premium Metal Snap-Caps) from www.dillonprecision.com,
800-762-3845. 17. Reloading the 357 SIG cartridge is like
loading a small bottlenecked rifle cartridge. For more reloading details,
please read my article 357
Safety & Reloading FAQ 18. You can now get slightly stronger +P+
9mm-like ammo (the 357 SIG) that is within SAAMI specs, unlike the standard 9mm
Luger caliber which has reached the end of its
development cycle (tongue in cheek). This can be an important point when
agencies make pistol bids, and to standardize on the only REAL level of
effective 9mm bullet 'velocity' that scores in the over 90% one-shot-stop
category. Put another way, the 357 SIG is the most flexible 9mm duty cartridge
available. If you like +P+ 9mm performance, the 357 SIG is
just more of the same with extra to spare. 9mm working range = standard 9mm ammo, +P 9mm
ammo, +P+ 9mm ammo 357SIG working range = standard 9mm ammo, +P
9mm ammo, +P+ 9mm ammo, ++P++ 357 SIG magnum level From these facts, it's easy to see which
caliber is more flexible. And yet the 357 SIG is still within normal SAAMI
specification and requires no +P, +P+ warning codes. In fact, if +P 357 Sig ammo is authorized some day, it would move the psi up to around 45,000 psi,
which some people have successfully tested without overpressue
problems --- depending on components used of course. Since the 357sig shoots a 9mm bullet, it is
pretty much related to the 9mm. Since it's a 9mm magnum round (more powerful
than a regular 9mm), marketing wise it's named the 357 Sig,
which also puts it into contention with the 125 grain 357 Mag
rounds. In general, 357 SIG & 9mm based pistols,
including the Glock 9's and 357's, have well supported
chambers. The 357 SIG can be loaded for the recoil sensitive, for deep
penetration or shallow penetration, for typical pistol blast or very loud and
intimidating blast. All of these 357 SIG advantages make the 357 SIG caliber an
excellent long term investment. Eventually, I hope to see mild as well as full
power 357 Sig ammo on the market. There is already
shallow and deep penetrating ammo. Take a look at the following 357 SIG chart
showing 124 grain bullets being driven from MINimum
powder charges to MAJOR charges with AA#9 powder (Speer Reloading Manual shows
a max charge weight of 14.6; Accurate Arms recommends a maximum of 13.0 grains
and a minimum of 11.7 grains based on the components tested in their lab. I
would not recommend greater than 13.0 grains with hard jacketed bullets). Note:
To put the felt recoil into perspective, the light powered 11.8 charged
357 SIG ammo felt identical to standard factory 9mm ammo:
Glock 31 pistol; 4.5" standard barrel; CED Millennium
Chronograph with infra red lighting As a comparison, here's a 9mm chart, which
shows the little cousin of the 357 SIG caliber in action. I used AA#9 powder to
drive a 124 grain bullet to maximum speed. The results were surprisingly good,
especially since I used mixed brass. As expected, the 9mm top velocity was aprox. 200 fps slower than the 357 SIG (this is generally
true if the same length barrel and components for the 9 and 357 Sig are used as much as possible). Now, there is some hot
+P+ factory ammo out there that can hold its own very well. The 9mm stats in
the following chart show compressed AA#9 powder loadings:
CZ 75 BD 9mm pistol; 4.7" standard
barrel; CED Millennium Chronograph with infra red lighting Here's a quote (not by me) trying to put the
357 SIG in its place: "Quoted from Tactical Forums
http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000432.html. What does the .357 Sig offer which is not already available? Are we missing
something? We have not observed any better performance with the .357 Sig than with the better 9mm loads; the better .40 S&W
loads appear to offer superior performance compared with the .357 Sig. Buford
Boone at the FBI Academy and I have compared our respective test data on the
.357 Sig--our results are nearly identical. The best
.357 Sig load appears to be the 125gr Gold Dot JHP.
In both the FBI testing and our assessment, it offers virtually IDENTICAL
performance as the 9 mm 124 gr +P Speer Gold Dot JHP
in both bare gelatin and through the various intermediate barriers. Likewise,
the 9mm 147 gr Winchester Ranger Talon JHP offers
similar terminal performance. The best that can be said of the .357 Sig is that it equals the 9mm in terminal performance,
although at the price of less ammunition capacity along with greater recoil,
muzzle flash, and wear on the weapon. Both the .40 S&W and .45 ACP make
larger holes in the target and therefore have the potential to more rapidly
incapacitate an aggressive adversary in a lethal force encounter. In addition,
the greater mass of the .40 S&W and .45 ACP bullets offer an improved
chance of defeating an intervening obstacle while still having enough
penetration to reach the vital organs of an armed opponent. I fully agree with
Mr. Boone when he writes that the .357 Sig is, “Not a
great or lousy cartridge, just another choice." Well, all I can say is, "If the 357 Sig is not a great cartridge or a lousy cartridge, then it
must be a good cartridge, just like the 9mm, 10mm, .40, .45, 38 Special, &
.357 Magnum. That's really excellent news. Thanks for the heads up". ;) Some folks compare gelatin test results of
9mm Luger ammo and 357 SIG ammo, and as a result some
important concepts are being missed. The gelatin test is only part of the
equation. You must also look at neural shock from stretch cavity, penetration
capabilities, driving heavier 9mm bullets, etc, where the 357 Sig can take advantage of that extra working energy.
Humans are more than just an inanimate block of jello.
Just because it's easy to concentrate on hard facts of bullet expansion in
gelatin and bullet penetration depth, does not mean that we should ignore
and/or lower the importance of the more difficult attributes that are contained
in the entire firing sequence. Just because you cannot put it
into a test tube, does not mean it should be taken lightly or not all. It's not what the target does to the bullet
that counts so much as what the bullet does to the target. Placing too much
emphasis on the former and ignoring the latter with the aid of a few cute one
sentence intellectual profundities (guestimates), is
NOT seeing the whole picture clearly. Both sides of the coin ARE important
whether you like it or not. The 357 SIG cartridge uses the same size
pistols as the 9mm and yet can hold more powder than a 9mm case. Thus,
the 357 SIG can produce more velocity & energy if certain
applications demand it. Very importantly, energy is the ability to do work,
and a 357 SIG cartridge can produce more energy than a 9mm period. For example,
the 357 SIG cartridge can push 147 grain bullets in a superior fashion
than the weaker 9mm cartridge. And frankly, I do not feel under gunned because
a Glock 9mm holds 17 rounds and a Glock
357 holds 15. You decide. The 357 SIG is possibly the most consistent
and efficient pistol caliber used on duty today, partly due to its bottlenecked
design. This cartridge is especially efficient and powerful out of short pistol
barrels ( superior to similar sized 9mm pistols). As one of several proof
points, see Accurate Arms Loading Guide, Number Two, in which they stated that the
357 SIG cartridge is without a doubt the most ballistically
efficient pistol caliber they have ever tested with a consistent and
amazingly low standard deviation. As another proof point look at my AA#9 charts
-- and my test cartridges were just cranked out on a Dillon 550 progressive
loader, without individually weighing powder charges. The small bottleneck
and high working pressure of the 357 Sig round both
contribute to this amazing consistency. I find it amusing when folks compare their
hot little 9mm +P+ ammo with the 357 SIG caliber when it comes to speed. Yet,
when it comes to pistol longevity and maintenance, they compare standard 9mm
ammo with the 357 SIG. I know it’s difficult to believe by some that the 357
SIG can shoot low powered rounds too; I do this all the time to save my hands
during 300 - 400 round practice sessions. Along the same line, standard 9mm
prices are often quoted instead of +P and +P+ 9mm ammo prices, which are a lot
more expensive. Yet one can buy 357 SIG ammo commonly for $8.50 to $12.50 and
it’s already +P ammo. In general, it's a myth that you can shoot
the 9mm faster and better than the 357 SIG. Well, I suppose it could be true if
one has not been trained to concentrate on the target, front sight and
squeezing the trigger firing sequence, and instead is fully anticipating the
sound and feeling of the felt recoil which would of course cause flinching
problems, even with a 9mm pistol. The following chart (from 2001 Autopistols Magazine) shows that the 357 SIG caliber is
quite competitive with double tap and speed drills: Compact Glock 19; 9mm; 4" barrel Compact Glock 23; .40S&W; 4" barrel Compact Glock 32; 357 SIG; 4" barrel Mike Boyle Performance Chart
Dave Spaulding Performance Chart
Quote: from American Handgunner, May/June 2002, Coptalk, Jim Keefer, the Va. PD's range master, "Our
results with the 357SIG have been far superior to what we had with the 9mm
P-226 and 147 grain subsonic hollowpoint that we had
prior. At first, there was some concern that the 16 inches of gelatin
penetration by the 357 SIG would indicate over-penetration on the street, but
this has not happened. Every single bullet fired into a suspect has mushroomed
and been recovered from the opposite side of the body, or from the suspect's
clothing. We've put a million and a half rounds downrange. It's working
great." Ayoob added, " Quote: "When the smoke cleared, we were somewhat surprised at the
results. The clear winner was the .357 Glock 31, by
more than a 2:1 margin. Frankly, most of us had expected the familiar 9x19 Glock 17 to take the crown. Both total hits and center hits
favored the Glock 31 by a commanding advantage."
Yearly Glock Autopistols
2001 Magazine; Harris Publications; "On Duty With
The .357 Glock 31" by Mike Boyle. Once
again, it's a myth that the 9mm is superior to the 357 Sig
in accuracy and speed drills, especially when you take into account that the
357 Sig can be downloaded to feel and act like a
standard 9mm round, or supercharged to leave the 9mm in the dust, especially
with the heavier 150 grain loads. I will be the first to admit that the 9mm Luger round is an excellent caliber. The Nine has been
around for a century, and there are some good reasons why the 9mm is the
universal standard in the world. I would not feel ill prepared with a 9mm
pistol, although I would prefer a 4.7" to 5.3" barrel in that
caliber. Actually, I admit openly that the 9mm is an excellent part time 357
SIG :) The 357 SIG has been getting good street
stats from agencies, and it has been tested quite a bit in labs. Some of the
more well known agencies using the 357 SIG are: Federal Air Marshals, United
States Secret Service, and the Texas DPS, to name a few. And some of these
agencies using the 357 SIG have already fired rounds totaling in the millions. I doubt if these agencies would be using the
357 SIG if the over all effect is nothing more than a good 9mm round in a
typical 9mm pistol (dah: they'd just use a 9mm pistol
instead). On the other hand, 357 SIG folks often use the same reasoning that
the 10mm FBI folks originally did, namely that the 10mm has more potential than
the .45 and the smaller cased .40 round (ditto comparing the 357 SIG with the
9mm). That reasoning didn't work too well for the health of the 10. But the 357
SIG has the advantage of fitting in 9mm sized pistols and easily swapping
barrels with a .40 pistol (magazine & pistol quality permitting). There are
even specially made 9mm barrels that can fit in some of the more popular 357 Sig pistols. So the
357 Sig can shoot three of the best duty calibers:
9mm, .40, and 357 Sig. In fact, the 357 SIG has gone a lot farther than the
10mm ever did (the 10 is a fantastic round, please don't misunderstand me), and
the 357 SIG continues to slowly make new inroads and continue expanding in the
market, despite all the naysayers. If you could also count the tens of thousands
of 357 SIG aftermarket barrels out there, besides actual factory 357 SIG
caliber based pistols sold, it becomes a very significant number. There's a
reason why there are so many ammo companies producing 357 SIG ammo now. One other thing to remember about guns in
general, especially the 357 SIG: The smaller and lighter the pistol gets, the
more you will feel that recoil. I wouldn't want to shoot 400 rounds of 357 SIG
in one session with the little Glock 33. Yet, I love
to practice with the G33 in smaller doses because it's an amazing back-up
pistol. What are the pros and cons of the 9? Well, there's a lot of feeble ammo out there. On the
other hand, there are at least a few good JHP factory brands out there that
have stopping power equivalent to any of the top duty rounds, as long as you
can legally use JHP in your area that is. Since the 9mm is a century old now,
it is basically fully debugged and there is lots of expertise about this round.
What are the pros and cons of the 357 Sig? Well,
There's some crappy, unsafe ammo out there because some ammo companies are
apparently still in a learning curve. The short neck of the 357 Sig can be easily compensated for by using a firm taper
crimp and possibly a light cannelure groove on high
quality plated bullets, or a sealant/glue, or using slower powders like AA#9,
or using a .3555 bullet diameter, which all but eliminate bullet setback and
over pressure problems. The
357sig can be downloaded to sound like, look like, smell like,
and perform like a standard powered 9mm Luger
cartridge. It can also be supercharged beyond the capabilities of the +P+ 9mm Luger cartridge, while remaining within normal SAAMI
pressures, something the 9mm Luger is incapable of.
Whether ballistics engineers will take advantage of the 357 Sig's
potential or not, only time will tell. On
the other hand, the 9mm Luger cartridge remains the
most powerful, most popular, small duty caliber on the planet. When I reload 9mm ammo, the bullet does not
hold any better than when I reload 357 SIG ammo, regardless of the 357’s
shorter neck. In fact, when I performed the thumb pressure test on a weighing
scale, both the 9mm and 357 SIG reloads had similar bullet holding capability,
which was good by the way. I was actually a little surprised that the 9mm did
not get a better “thumb scale rating” than my 357 SIG ammo, all components
being equal. I will add that reloading a little bottleneck case like the 357
SIG takes expertise in matching the reloading die setup to the bullet and case
type correctly. But really, this is the same for straight wall reloaders, who may be suffering from bullet setback a lot
more than they realize. Ammo companies that pump out bulk pistol ammo really
need to keep improving their quality standards, especially with the 357 SIG.
Like I said, ALL calibers have to be monitored for bullet slippage. Summary ·
The 9mm in
dominant throughout the world in sheer numbers. ·
The 357sig pushes
heavier bullets in a superior fashion than the 9mm. ·
The 357sig pushes
bullets in a superior fashion than the 9mm out of short barrels. ·
Using the same
components, except for the brass, the 357sig is on the average 200 fps faster
than the 9mm. ·
The 357sig is
more flexible in velocities than the 9mm, from standard 9mm velocities to faster
than 9mm velocities. ·
The 357sig can
pump more destructive energy into that 12-15 inches of penetration (see above
regarding breaking gelatin plates and even knocking gelatin blocks off the
table) than other duty calibers, except for the 10mm caliber. ·
Ammo companies
have tuned the 9mm and 357sig to penetrate and expand in a similar fashion (see
above). ·
Standard 9mm
prices are often quoted instead of the more expensive +P and +P+ 9mm ammo. Yet
one can buy 357 SIG ammo commonly for $8.50 to $12.50 and it’s already +P ammo. ·
Depending on the
platform, 9mm hi-cap magazines can hold 1 or 3 more rounds than the 357sig. ·
Depending on the platform and ammo used, the
357sig can be just about as tame to shoot as the 9mm. ·
If the 9mm uses a steady diet of +P+ ammo, pistol
life should be similar to the effects of full power 357sig ammo. ·
The +P+ 9mm decibel sound rating is somewhat
similar to the 357sig. 19. The strong brass was constructed to
handle a standard 40,000 psi, as opposed to the
35,000 psi SAAMI spec for the 9mm and .40 S&W.
The 357 SIG brass is stronger than .40 S&W brass. Even though the 357 SIG
looks like nothing but a necked down .40, it's quite different. The 357 SIG
case wall and the insides are beefed up to handle more pressure than .40 S&W
brass is capable of. 20. The 357 SIG has the option of pushing
heavier bullets like the 147/150 grainers, to higher,
supersonic velocities than a standard 9mm pistol is able to do (1127-1218 fps
from a standard 4" barrel) --- See Attachment 3. 21. The 357 SIG and .40 S&W 135 grain
rounds both produce over 500 ft/lbs of energy. But the 357 SIG is clearly ahead
if you have application needs using lighter bullets that penetrate well with
excellent accuracy and more energy punch --- See Attachments 1 & 2. 22. The 357 SIG has the energy and trajectory
of a lighter weight .40 S&W bullet, yet the 357 SIG penetrates like a 180
grain .40 S&W bullet. You get two for the price of one. Ed Sanow stated, "The Glock 31
(4.5" barrel) firing 357 SIG 125-grain JHPs has
about the same felt recoil as a Glock 22 (4.5"
barrel) firing .40 S&W 180-grain JHPs. With 50
percent more energy, the .357 SIG has better tactical penetration." ---
See Attachments 2,3,& 4. 23. An advantage of the 357 SIG over the .40
S&W is that a lot of people have proven that the 357 SIG is inherently
accurate, while the .40 S&W is good, but not excellent in this arena in
general. --- See Attachment 6. 24. Another 357 SIG advantage is that it's
like having a little rifle instead of a pistol. The 357 SIG is accurate out to
100 yards. At 100 yards, using a 3.86" barrel, a 125 grain bullet is still
traveling at a nominal velocity of 1080 fps, with an energy of 325 ft/lbs. And
it has a trajectory of 0.2" at 25 yards, 0.7" at 50 yards, 1.6"
at 75 yards, and 3.1" at 100 yards. Typical defense & sport scenarios
don't usually occur at long distance. But it's still nice to know that the 357
SIG has this capability. The Oct. 2002 edition of "Guns &
Weapons for Law Enforcement" has an interesting article on a P109 357SIG
Carbine with a 16 inch barrel (1 in 16 twist). Ammunition averaged between 1600
and 1700 fps, approximately 300 fps faster than a Glock
31 with a 4.5” barrel. The effect of a Glock 31 on
media is impressive. The effect of the 357SIG Carbine is devastating. To
contact the firearms maker, see http://kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com The myth that a
bullet has to be traveling over 2200 fps in order for energy to be effective in
media, is pure bunk in regard to the 357 Sig caliber.
25. Here's some 357 SIG hardware: the SVI/Inifnity 1911 pistols; STI 1911 pistols; 1911 conversion
kits; SIG's P226, P239, P229, P229 Sport, & SIGpro
SP2340; Taurus Service Auto; Beretta Cougar; Glocks
M31, M32, & M33; HK USP Compact 357; Steyr M357;
Springfield Armory XD. At the time of this writing, there are at least 16
factory built 357 Sig caliber based pistols on the
market. Several barrel companies support this cartridge as well. I've also
heard on occasion that some pistol companies are looking at strengthening their
.40's and/or improving their magazines to support the 357 SIG. In actuality,
the 357 SIG pistol count would skyrocket if it included the thousands and
thousands of after market 357 SIG barrels that folks have bought for their
.40's. 26. Many 27. A number of agencies are using the 357
SIG because it's an accurate, flat shooting, easy to handle 9mm magnum with
excellent penetration characteristics through barriers. In fact, more and more
357 SIG ammo is hitting the market all the time, to handle various application
needs (shallow and deep penetration), including specially made "Police
Only" ammo. I've read more than a couple reports that new
recruits and seasoned officers have done some of their best shooting using the
357 SIG. A Short List of Agencies that issue or have
as an option to carry the 357 SIG Cartridge (please send additions and/or
corrections via the
Feedback form.
Delaware State Police (First to adopt the 357
SIG) Federal Air Marshals Federal Protective Services (FPS) Special
Agents for General Services Administration (GSA) – P226 Las Vegas Metro Police (allowed use of) |