9mm Luger and 357 Sig Comparison

You can now get slightly stronger +P+ 9mm-like ammo (the 357 SIG) that is within SAAMI specs, unlike the standard 9mm Luger caliber which has reached the end of its development cycle (tongue in cheek). This can be an important point when agencies make pistol bids, and to standardize on the only REAL level of effective 9mm bullet 'velocity' that scores in the over 90% one-shot-stop category. Put another way, the 357 SIG is the most flexible 9mm duty cartridge available. If you like +P+ 9mm performance, the 357 SIG is just more of the same with extra to spare.

9mm working range = standard 9mm ammo, +P 9mm ammo, +P+ 9mm ammo

357SIG working range = standard 9mm ammo, +P 9mm ammo, +P+ 9mm ammo, ++P++ 357 SIG magnum level

From these facts, it's easy to see which caliber is more flexible. And yet the 357 SIG is still within normal SAAMI specification and requires no +P, +P+ warning codes. In fact, if +P 357 Sig ammo is authorized some day, it would move the psi up to around 45,000 psi, which some people have successfully tested without overpressue problems --- depending on components used of course.

Since the 357sig shoots a 9mm bullet, it is pretty much related to the 9mm. Since it's a 9mm magnum round (more powerful than a regular 9mm), marketing wise it's named the 357 Sig, which also puts it into contention with the 125 grain 357 Mag rounds.

WWW.SAAMI.ORG

In general, 357 SIG & 9mm based pistols, including the Glock 9's and 357's, have well supported chambers. The 357 SIG can be loaded for the recoil sensitive, for deep penetration or shallow penetration, for typical pistol blast or very loud and intimidating blast. All of these 357 SIG advantages make the 357 SIG caliber an excellent long term investment. Eventually, I hope to see mild as well as full power 357 Sig ammo on the market. There is already shallow and deep penetrating ammo.

Take a look at the following 357 SIG chart showing 124 grain bullets being driven from MINimum powder charges to MAJOR charges with AA#9 powder (Speer Reloading Manual shows a max charge weight of 14.6; Accurate Arms recommends a maximum of 13.0 grains and a minimum of 11.7 grains based on the components tested in their lab. I would not recommend greater than 13.0 grains with hard jacketed bullets). Note: To put the felt recoil into perspective, the light powered 11.8 charged 357 SIG ammo felt identical to standard factory 9mm ammo:

Glock 31 pistol; 4.5" standard barrel; CED Millennium Chronograph with infra red lighting

As a comparison, here's a 9mm chart, which shows the little cousin of the 357 SIG caliber in action. I used AA#9 powder to drive a 124 grain bullet to maximum speed. The results were surprisingly good, especially since I used mixed brass. As expected, the 9mm top velocity was aprox. 200 fps slower than the 357 SIG (this is generally true if the same length barrel and components for the 9 and 357 Sig are used as much as possible). Now, there is some hot +P+ factory ammo out there that can hold its own very well. The 9mm stats in the following chart show compressed AA#9 powder loadings:

CZ 75 BD 9mm pistol; 4.7" standard barrel; CED Millennium Chronograph with infra red lighting

Here's a quote (not by me) trying to put the 357 SIG in its place:

"Quoted from Tactical Forums http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000432.html. What does the .357 Sig offer which is not already available? Are we missing something? We have not observed any better performance with the .357 Sig than with the better 9mm loads; the better .40 S&W loads appear to offer superior performance compared with the .357 Sig. Buford Boone at the FBI Academy and I have compared our respective test data on the .357 Sig--our results are nearly identical. The best .357 Sig load appears to be the 125gr Gold Dot JHP. In both the FBI testing and our assessment, it offers virtually IDENTICAL performance as the 9 mm 124 gr +P Speer Gold Dot JHP in both bare gelatin and through the various intermediate barriers. Likewise, the 9mm 147 gr Winchester Ranger Talon JHP offers similar terminal performance. The best that can be said of the .357 Sig is that it equals the 9mm in terminal performance, although at the price of less ammunition capacity along with greater recoil, muzzle flash, and wear on the weapon. Both the .40 S&W and .45 ACP make larger holes in the target and therefore have the potential to more rapidly incapacitate an aggressive adversary in a lethal force encounter. In addition, the greater mass of the .40 S&W and .45 ACP bullets offer an improved chance of defeating an intervening obstacle while still having enough penetration to reach the vital organs of an armed opponent. I fully agree with Mr. Boone when he writes that the .357 Sig is, “Not a great or lousy cartridge, just another choice."

Well, all I can say is, "If the 357 Sig is not a great cartridge or a lousy cartridge, then it must be a good cartridge, just like the 9mm, 10mm, .40, .45, 38 Special, & .357 Magnum. That's really excellent news. Thanks for the heads up". ;)

Some folks compare gelatin test results of 9mm Luger ammo and 357 SIG ammo, and as a result some important concepts are being missed. The gelatin test is only part of the equation. You must also look at neural shock from stretch cavity, penetration capabilities, driving heavier 9mm bullets, etc, where the 357 Sig can take advantage of that extra working energy. Humans are more than just an inanimate block of jello. Just because it's easy to concentrate on hard facts of bullet expansion in gelatin and bullet penetration depth, does not mean that we should ignore and/or lower the importance of the more difficult attributes that are contained in the entire firing sequence. Just because you cannot put it into a test tube, does not mean it should be taken lightly or not all.

It's not what the target does to the bullet that counts so much as what the bullet does to the target. Placing too much emphasis on the former and ignoring the latter with the aid of a few cute one sentence intellectual profundities (guestimates), is NOT seeing the whole picture clearly. Both sides of the coin ARE important whether you like it or not.

The 357 SIG cartridge uses the same size pistols as the 9mm and yet can hold more powder than a 9mm case. Thus, the 357 SIG can produce more velocity & energy if certain applications demand it. Very importantly, energy is the ability to do work, and a 357 SIG cartridge can produce more energy than a 9mm period. For example, the 357 SIG cartridge can push 147 grain bullets in a superior fashion than the weaker 9mm cartridge. And frankly, I do not feel under gunned because a Glock 9mm holds 17 rounds and a Glock 357 holds 15. You decide.

The 357 SIG is possibly the most consistent and efficient pistol caliber used on duty today, partly due to its bottlenecked design. This cartridge is especially efficient and powerful out of short pistol barrels ( superior to similar sized 9mm pistols). As one of several proof points, see Accurate Arms Loading Guide, Number Two, in which they stated that the 357 SIG cartridge is without a doubt the most ballistically efficient pistol caliber they have ever tested with a consistent and amazingly low standard deviation. As another proof point look at my AA#9 charts -- and my test cartridges were just cranked out on a Dillon 550 progressive loader, without individually weighing powder charges. The small bottleneck and high working pressure of the 357 Sig round both contribute to this amazing consistency.

I find it amusing when folks compare their hot little 9mm +P+ ammo with the 357 SIG caliber when it comes to speed. Yet, when it comes to pistol longevity and maintenance, they compare standard 9mm ammo with the 357 SIG. I know it’s difficult to believe by some that the 357 SIG can shoot low powered rounds too; I do this all the time to save my hands during 300 - 400 round practice sessions. Along the same line, standard 9mm prices are often quoted instead of +P and +P+ 9mm ammo prices, which are a lot more expensive. Yet one can buy 357 SIG ammo commonly for $8.50 to $12.50 and it’s already +P ammo.

In general, it's a myth that you can shoot the 9mm faster and better than the 357 SIG. Well, I suppose it could be true if one has not been trained to concentrate on the target, front sight and squeezing the trigger firing sequence, and instead is fully anticipating the sound and feeling of the felt recoil which would of course cause flinching problems, even with a 9mm pistol. The following chart (from 2001 Autopistols Magazine) shows that the 357 SIG caliber is quite competitive with double tap and speed drills:

Compact Glock 19; 9mm; 4" barrel

Compact Glock 23; .40S&W; 4" barrel

Compact Glock 32; 357 SIG; 4" barrel

Mike Boyle Performance Chart

Dave Spaulding Performance Chart

Quote: from American Handgunner, May/June 2002, Coptalk, Jim Keefer, the Va. PD's range master, "Our results with the 357SIG have been far superior to what we had with the 9mm P-226 and 147 grain subsonic hollowpoint that we had prior. At first, there was some concern that the 16 inches of gelatin penetration by the 357 SIG would indicate over-penetration on the street, but this has not happened. Every single bullet fired into a suspect has mushroomed and been recovered from the opposite side of the body, or from the suspect's clothing. We've put a million and a half rounds downrange. It's working great." Ayoob added, "Texas troopers speak glowingly of the bullet's 'lightning bolt effect' when it strikes. Virginia troopers told me what impressed them most was instant one-shot stops on armed felons who weren't hit in the A-zone. "

Quote: "When the smoke cleared, we were somewhat surprised at the results. The clear winner was the .357 Glock 31, by more than a 2:1 margin. Frankly, most of us had expected the familiar 9x19 Glock 17 to take the crown. Both total hits and center hits favored the Glock 31 by a commanding advantage." Yearly Glock Autopistols 2001 Magazine; Harris Publications; "On Duty With The .357 Glock 31" by Mike Boyle.

Once again, it's a myth that the 9mm is superior to the 357 Sig in accuracy and speed drills, especially when you take into account that the 357 Sig can be downloaded to feel and act like a standard 9mm round, or supercharged to leave the 9mm in the dust, especially with the heavier 150 grain loads.

I will be the first to admit that the 9mm Luger round is an excellent caliber. The Nine has been around for a century, and there are some good reasons why the 9mm is the universal standard in the world. I would not feel ill prepared with a 9mm pistol, although I would prefer a 4.7" to 5.3" barrel in that caliber. Actually, I admit openly that the 9mm is an excellent part time 357 SIG :)

The 357 SIG has been getting good street stats from agencies, and it has been tested quite a bit in labs. Some of the more well known agencies using the 357 SIG are: Federal Air Marshals, United States Secret Service, and the Texas DPS, to name a few. And some of these agencies using the 357 SIG have already fired rounds totaling in the millions.

I doubt if these agencies would be using the 357 SIG if the over all effect is nothing more than a good 9mm round in a typical 9mm pistol (dah: they'd just use a 9mm pistol instead). On the other hand, 357 SIG folks often use the same reasoning that the 10mm FBI folks originally did, namely that the 10mm has more potential than the .45 and the smaller cased .40 round (ditto comparing the 357 SIG with the 9mm). That reasoning didn't work too well for the health of the 10. But the 357 SIG has the advantage of fitting in 9mm sized pistols and easily swapping barrels with a .40 pistol (magazine & pistol quality permitting). There are even specially made 9mm barrels that can fit in some of the more popular 357 Sig pistols.  So the 357 Sig can shoot three of the best duty calibers: 9mm, .40, and 357 Sig. In fact, the 357 SIG has gone a lot farther than the 10mm ever did (the 10 is a fantastic round, please don't misunderstand me), and the 357 SIG continues to slowly make new inroads and continue expanding in the market, despite all the naysayers.

If you could also count the tens of thousands of 357 SIG aftermarket barrels out there, besides actual factory 357 SIG caliber based pistols sold, it becomes a very significant number. There's a reason why there are so many ammo companies producing 357 SIG ammo now.

One other thing to remember about guns in general, especially the 357 SIG: The smaller and lighter the pistol gets, the more you will feel that recoil. I wouldn't want to shoot 400 rounds of 357 SIG in one session with the little Glock 33. Yet, I love to practice with the G33 in smaller doses because it's an amazing back-up pistol.

What are the pros and cons of the 9? Well, there's a lot of feeble ammo out there. On the other hand, there are at least a few good JHP factory brands out there that have stopping power equivalent to any of the top duty rounds, as long as you can legally use JHP in your area that is. Since the 9mm is a century old now, it is basically fully debugged and there is lots of expertise about this round.

What are the pros and cons of the 357 Sig? Well, There's some crappy, unsafe ammo out there because some ammo companies are apparently still in a learning curve. The short neck of the 357 Sig can be easily compensated for by using a firm taper crimp and possibly a light cannelure groove on high quality plated bullets, or a sealant/glue, or using slower powders like AA#9, or using a .3555 bullet diameter, which all but eliminate bullet setback and over pressure problems.

The 357sig can be downloaded to sound like, look like, smell like, and perform like a standard powered 9mm Luger cartridge. It can also be supercharged beyond the capabilities of the +P+ 9mm Luger cartridge, while remaining within normal SAAMI pressures, something the 9mm Luger is incapable of. Whether ballistics engineers will take advantage of the 357 Sig's potential or not, only time will tell. On the other hand, the 9mm Luger cartridge remains the most powerful, most popular, small duty caliber on the planet.

When I reload 9mm ammo, the bullet does not hold any better than when I reload 357 SIG ammo, regardless of the 357’s shorter neck. In fact, when I performed the thumb pressure test on a weighing scale, both the 9mm and 357 SIG reloads had similar bullet holding capability, which was good by the way. I was actually a little surprised that the 9mm did not get a better “thumb scale rating” than my 357 SIG ammo, all components being equal. I will add that reloading a little bottleneck case like the 357 SIG takes expertise in matching the reloading die setup to the bullet and case type correctly. But really, this is the same for straight wall reloaders, who may be suffering from bullet setback a lot more than they realize. Ammo companies that pump out bulk pistol ammo really need to keep improving their quality standards, especially with the 357 SIG. Like I said, ALL calibers have to be monitored for bullet slippage.

Summary

·        The 9mm in dominant throughout the world in sheer numbers.

·        The 357sig pushes heavier bullets in a superior fashion than the 9mm.

·        The 357sig pushes bullets in a superior fashion than the 9mm out of short barrels.

·        Using the same components, except for the brass, the 357sig is on the average 200 fps faster than the 9mm.

·        The 357sig is more flexible in velocities than the 9mm, from standard 9mm velocities to faster than 9mm velocities.

·        The 357sig can pump more destructive energy into that 12-15 inches of penetration (see below regarding breaking gelatin plates and even knocking gelatin blocks off the table), than other duty calibers, except for the 10mm caliber.

·        Ammo companies have tuned the 9mm and 357sig to penetrate and expand in a similar fashion (see above).

·        Standard 9mm prices are often quoted instead of the more expensive +P and +P+ 9mm ammo. Yet one can buy 357 SIG ammo commonly for $8.50 to $12.50 and it’s already +P ammo.

·        Depending on the platform, 9mm hi-cap magazines can hold 1 or 3 more rounds than the 357sig.

·         Depending on the platform and ammo used, the 357sig can be just about as tame to shoot as the 9mm.

·         If the 9mm uses a steady diet of +P+ ammo, pistol life should be similar to the effects of full power 357sig ammo.

·         The +P+ 9mm decibel sound rating is somewhat similar to the 357sig.

I’d like to discuss some excellent information from the www.ammolab.com forum group. This ammolab site specializes in testing ammo and is one of the top 9 firearms sites on the planet:

He has tested several thousand rounds of the usual 9, 40, 45, etc. When he tested the 357 Sig Winchester Ranger and Remington Golden Saber ammo, it did something only the 10mm Silvertip has been able to do. Both of these rounds cracked the top plate that holds the gelatin blocks in place during testing. It’s obvious that these 357 Sig rounds dump more energy into 12 – 14 inches of gelatin than most other rounds he has tested.

When he reinforced the top plates, the same two 357 Sig rounds mentioned above then cracked the lower plate. The best 9mm loads, such as the Ranger 127gr +P+ barely created a ripple in the gelatin in comparison.

[A 357 Sig carbine with a 16” barrel does not push a bullet near the dubious and partially out of date magical 2200 fps for energy to supposedly make a difference. Although at 1600 to 1700 fps, the 357 Sig round is absolutely devastating and I will not describe the effects here. At 1325 – 1450, the 357 Sig is downright impressive with duty pistols.  It’s important to not only look at what the bullet did to the gelatin media (penetration, bullet expansion), but what the bullet does during actual impact as well. Both sides of the coin are important and one side will not disappear even though it’s ignored. This is not a vague plea since the bullet impact affect on gelatin can be seen, photographed, and measured.]

As we know, the United States Secret Service, the Department of Public Safety, and the Delaware State Police, to name a few, use the 357 SIG caliber, and the gentleman I’m paraphrasing has contact with a member of the shooting investigation teams of these three agencies.

His contact, an officer, stated that the Texas DPS troopers love the .357 Sig because it has produced the highest fatality rate of violent criminals, much better than anything else they have ever been issued ( including the .45). The 357 Sig has operated at 100% for every single shooting so far.

According to the annual shooting review board files, the 357 Sig is working at 99% for the Delaware State Police, which uses .357 Sig Speer GD ammo.

He also had an opportunity to review the USSS shooting files. They use the Ranger 125 grain load and report it’s the most effective pistol cartridge the USSS has ever been issued. The USSS has had four failures, all with Speer practice ammo. They are now using Winchester clean fire practice ammo.

From testing several thousand rounds of handgun ammunition, he believes that the statement, “Energy Transfer with handguns is a myth”, is only partially accurate. A few handgun rounds such as the 357 SIG caliber, actually transfer noticeable energy to the test medium, which can be seen, photographed, and measured by the distance gelatin blocks are moved, using an equal size and weight of gelatin block for each test. [These facts are observable and verifiable. The long skinny 9mm bullet using the “357 Sig engine” does indeed cause damage that the results of recovered bullets from gelatin cannot completely explain. Some of the more savvy agencies using the 357 Sig cartridge understand this.]

He stated that the .357 Sig is very close to becoming one of the finest auto pistol cartridges ever made.  It works consistently over and over again. Police agencies from coast to coast are switching to it in droves because it truly offers everything that the 9mm +P+ had going for it, plus the penetration of the 147gr 9mm along with the capabilities that the disappointing .40 S&W "wonder cartridge" was supposed to have. In a medium frame/medium sized service pistol it offers everything that the .45acp can in terms of penetration and "stopping power" but it does it in a smaller package.

[Let’s look at a .40 and 357 Sig loading of somewhat equivalent ft-lbs of energy

"Federal .357 Sig JHP 125 grains - 1,352 fps velocity, 507 ft-lbs. energy, 169 power factor (momentum)
Winchester .40 S&W Silvertip 155 grains - 1,205 fps velocity, 500 ft-lbs. energy, 187 power factor (momentum)"

Well, if you look at the power factor of the two above loads in 357sig and .40, the .40 round is much harsher to shoot than the 357 Sig round, assuming the .40 and .357sig rounds are launching from pistols of similar size and weight.]

Summary

[Using a stronger jig to hold larger amounts of gelatin in place, as some do, can hide pertinent data. The purpose of bullet testing is to see the impact of the bullet in the medium as it happens, as well as view the end results of penetration and bullet expansion. Unlike clamped down gelatin in a lab, the body is not constrained by super strong immovable plates. So designing a jig and gelatin mix which is too strong and too large provides only partial data results and may hide other important facts.]

The 10mm is an excellent all-around auto pistol caliber, from plinking to self defense to hunting. Yet, the smaller and easier to shoot 357 Sig still offers penetration advantages for skilled law enforcement officers similar to the best 10mm ammo. And the 357sig has an excellent balance of size and ease of use for non experts as well.

Both the 10 and 357sig (at least in some loadings) produce excellent shock value (rapid energy transfer into the first 3” – 6” of gelatin), which caused the above mentioned plates to break.

Winchester spent well over a million dollars developing the 357 Sig RA357T design. Is the 357 Sig a wildcat cartridge? I think not. This ammo provides the excellent penetration of the Ranger T, but relatively shallow penetration of the previous USSS issue 9mm 115 gr. +P+ loads. Essentially, the bullet expands very consistently and does not over penetrate. And what makes this bullet stand out is the ability to send a major shock value (rapid energy transfer) into the first 3” – 6” of gelatin, resulting in a severe “pressure spike punch” that exceeded the load capacity of the 1” plywood plates, causing them to break. The 10mm round in question did the exact same thing.

[Agencies that have been using this round for years like it, even after firing millions of rounds. The newer agencies give it high marks. I’ve received emails from law enforcement officers attesting to the satisfaction of using the 357 SIG, along with some of the best shooting they’ve ever done with an auto pistol caliber. I’ve seen the effects of what the 357 SIG does at a practical pistol range. When it’s loaded with low recoil ammo in the 1120 fps range, an amateur can shoot just as fast and accurately as anyone else; yet, the loud boom (low supersonic range) has an interesting psychological effect on the crowd that screams, “Be afraid even if I miss”. Lower velocities below 1000 fps with a 147 grain bullet can of course cut down on blast if so desired. The 357 Sig has been known to gouge metal pepper poppers. The special bottlenecked funnel effect of pushing the 9mm bullet down range can develop a major quick transfer into the first 3 – 6” of media to create a major “pressure spike punch” into the target. The street stats of agencies and my own observation at the range show that the 357 SIG doesn’t care what detractors say. It just works really well. In fact, all the duty calibers do well with one or more excellent loads that are available.]

The ammolab has stated in their forum that the best loads in 9mm, 40 S&W, .357 Sig, .38 Super, 9x23mm, .357 Magnum and .45acp loadings, all perform well. Here’s a list of some preferred loads:

124gr +P 9mm
127gr +P+ 9mm
147gr 9mm
125gr 357 Sig
115 & 125gr .38 Super
125gr 9x23mm
110, 125, & 140gr .357 Magnum
135gr jhp +p & 155gr, 40S&W
165gr jhp .45acp
135gr 10mm jhp +p

(Each of the above loads creates virtually identical temporary and permanent wound cavities.)

I’ll end with just one more paraphrase from the ammolab to confound you:

The 357 SIG is fun to shoot and actually offers advantages over both the .40 and 9mm that neither can match independently.

End of ammolab.com Section